Playing Ladder Matches on Tiger Woods Online?

[Faterson]

Hi all! Last evening, I was for the first time able to complete a round in Tiger Woods Online. My experience was highly positive, and I sent a brief review of TWO into WGT's forum. The post is also copied below, for easy reference.

Question to Mark: would he allow us to incorporate the Tiger Woods Online game here at WGTLS? There are 5 full stroke-play courses available at TWO; the multi-player feature is available, too. Why not make it possible for WGTLS members to play Ladder matches there as well? (True, it would effectively turn WGTLS into something like "OGLS = Online Golf Ladder System" in the long run... but why not?)

Any feedback will be appreciated.

Was searching for a thread comparing WGT and TWO until I found this one. All the other threads have been locked because of undue controversies. Hope we can keep this thread nice & civil. (It needs to be said the previous 2 posts are months old, and especially TWO has greatly evolved since then.)

Earlier tonight I managed to complete my very first TWO round, a 93 at Pebble Beach. I'm blown away: the game ran very smoothly from start to finish (in full-screen mode, too), and the graphics seemed much improved compared to the previous Beta cycle. I could never see ball flight previously, and Wolf Creek looked pretty shabby. Now, the same courses look glorious, despite my notebook being 3 years old and not capable of running the game using the best graphics settings. TWO's images are, of course, computer-generated, and can't compete with the clarity of WGT's HD photographs, but they are of astounding quality anyway.

What an experience it is, to see incoming ocean waves at the famous Pebble Beach, hole 7! What a thrill it is to see a flock of birds fly over your head as you tee off on hole 18! Those kinds of experiences will never be offered here on WGT.com, due to the static nature of photographs. It was such a thrill to play there I (inadvertently) sent at least half a dozen balls into the ocean to celebrate the occasion; it's a good thing I didn't have to buy them.

The range of camera views is much wider on TWO. You can choose any set of pin positions, green speeds, fairway speeds, tees, winds. There's a wide array of keyboard shortcuts: you can move your aim around just by pressing the arrow keys on your keyboard! That's definitely the better way to do it for me, instead of messing around with the mouse all the time. You can activate the shot meter with the spacebar, too. And the shot meter is smooth as silk, no hiccups whatsoever. Multiplayer is now possible in TWO, too, although I haven't tried it in practice yet.

None of this worked for me in TWO's previous Beta cycle. I couldn't complete a single round back then. It looks like they improved the game tremendously over the last few weeks. I have likewise improved my 3-year-old notebook: I bought a new hard-drive for it, a Seagate with 7200rpm. It makes the notebook run faster and nearly noiselessly; could the new hard-drive, at my end, have contributed to the game becoming playable for me? I wouldn't know the answer to this.

The game did not seem excessively easy to play for me; witness my premier round of 93 (using the easiest settings), although I was more or less shooting haphazardly just to check if I could complete all 18 holes.

All in all, WGT now has some stiff competition in TWO. The other game already offers 5 full stroke-play courses, with the sixth course to be released in days' time.

True, the two games follow completely different business models. WGT will always be free to play with basic equipment, whereas TWO will be subscription-based. Judging by today's experience with TWO, however, I'd be willing to pay up to $10 per month for playing TWO.

[Faterson]

I've now tested the multi-player on TWO, and have played a round on all 5 courses. It's great fun. From the software setup point of view, TWO is no doubt a lot more robust than WGT. The meter is extremely smooth, hardly any lag or skip to speak of. I didn't have to close other software on the laptop, or the original browser window, in order to avoid meter lags. My best round so far is an 81 at St. Andrews, where I scored a 10 on the final par 4 hole 18, otherwise it would have been a decent round. I tried to select medium-difficulty pins, tees, wind, etc. for my rounds.

Best thing of all: you can play an entire round without touching your mouse! I'm a keyboard-centric person, and I just loved being able to do everything in TWO via the keyboard, without having to touch the mouse a single time. The reaction time for zoom views is split seconds in TWO, whereas in WGT, zoom shots are tardy to load. In TWO, you just press the Z key to zoom towards your aim and back. You adjust your aim by pressing the four arrow keys. You adjust top spin, back spin, draw & fade by pressing the F, V, C, B keys. You shoot the ball via the spacebar. You go to the chat-box via the TAB key, and you leave the chat-box via SHIFT+TAB. In WGT, all of these things must be accomplished by fumbling with your mouse. It's time-inefficient.

TWO's multi-player feature could definitely be employed for Ladder / tournament matches on this site. I'd like to ask Mark to consider this option. Could he perhaps add the 5 TWO courses to the record loss page, in addition to WGT's Bethpage and Kiawah? I tried to find folks in the chatroom on this site to play tonight's rounds with (just experimentally, not as Ladder matches); we attempted to launch a common round with Fluffton, but failed. There is no Search for specific players in TWO's multiplayer for now, so you just need to launch a multi-player game simultaneously with your partner in the hope that TWO's server will pair you up. I did meet other WGT regulars on TWO's courses tonight, such as Nivlac, Snaike, and Lysti. Also her husband Drivnchaos with whom I played (& lost decisively) at St. Andrews.

There is one radical difference in TWO's multi-player compared to WGT: you play your shots simultaneously with your opponents, so you only see their ball arcs, but you never play in turns. In addition, you can set the timer to 30 seconds (default), or 60 seconds, or 90 seconds (as on WGT). What all this amounts to is that TWO's multi-player is a fast-paced game. Whereas it takes up to 2 hours to complete an 18-holer at WGT, it can be done in under an hour at TWO. And 9-hole matches would really be a snappy affair, approaching WGT's 3-hole matches in terms of time demands. (Would be ideal for It's a Knockout.) Of course, since you almost never see your opponents actually making the shots, and your timer is ticking away practically all the time, there's less time for chatting during matches, for getting to know each other, etc. The social contact is diminished for the purpose of speeding up the game. Drivnchaos called it "casual partnership", I think. I've played 3 multi-player rounds, but could hardly ever compliment my opponents on the birdies they made, since I simply never saw them make those birdies; I usually only learned about them from the score-card that pops up for you between holes. In this sense, WGT is a lot more social than TWO.

So far a few of my observations, and if Mark added the 5 TWO courses for us to the Ladders' record loss pages, I'd appreciate that. There is no option to play random 3-hole matches in TWO; only 9-hole or 18-hole matches, or (which would be rather strange) rounds consisting of only par 3s / only par 4s / only par 5s.

[Cesar]

Hi Faterson,
The only problem with TWO is that, by now,it is a closed beta. I signed up and got an email telling me that "if I am selected to participate, will receive an email with instructions on how to access the beta", otherwise, they said, you have to wait until the open beta later in the year.
Best,
Cesar

[EllisSpice]

As Cesar has just pointed out, TWO has problems. One being that not everyone can play it (and as such is unfair to those who can't currently play), and the other being that (sob) it doesn't work on all machines.

Maybe when both of those problems have been solved, and Mark has worked though the back-log of other ideas he has, THEN TWO might be able to join this site. Hell, www.twols.co.uk might have already been registered for TWO ladder matches... (it hasn't, by the way).

And then there's the legal issues with EA to deal with....

[Faterson]

The 5 (in a few days, 6) TWO stroke-play courses would only be an additional option for Ladder matches. The default playing field would still be WGT.com, because it is freely available for everyone (and always will be). Your concern, Ellis, therefore wouldn't be an issue; no one would ever be forced to play TWO rounds in order to participate in the Ladders.

I talked to Mark about this and he said he wouldn't like to mix match results from WGT and TWO in a single ladder. Whereas I would find the idea attractive. You know, like in real golf, there is the PGA Tour, and there are other tours on other continents. But there is still only one unified world golf ranking. So, the Ladders on this site might be the "unified online golf world rankings". WGTLS might expand into OGLS (Online Golf Ladder System).

For now, though, Mark said if ladder match results from TWO were to be accepted, it would be on a separate ladder, which I don't find as interesting as integrating the 2 games in a single ladder. If the 2 games were integrated in a single ladder, this might make WGTLS/OGLS truly unique. And we might see an influx of new users on this site, because TWO players would no doubt be joining the ladders (players not familiar with WGT yet).

Especially Ladder 18 might benefit from allowing TWO match results. Because you play your shots simultaneously with your opponents in TWO's multiplay, a TWO foursome takes no more time than a 2-player match (or a single-player match!), between 45 to 60 minutes perhaps, as opposed to 3 or 4 hours (!) for a WGT foursome.

Anyway, just some ideas from me, feel free to ignore! I've always been an advocate of "integration" rather than "segregation", so I thought combining the 2 games on a single ladder might be pretty cool, and might make Ladder matches even more attractive.

PS: Ellis, I don't think there'd be any legal issues to resolve... Anyone can record any match results on any site; that isn't subject to copyright restrictions.

[hbthree]

I talked to Mark about this and he said he wouldn't like to mix match results from WGT and TWO in a single ladder. Whereas I would find the idea attractive. You know, like in real golf, there is the PGA Tour, and there are other tours on other continents. But there is still only one unified world golf ranking. So, the Ladders on this site might be the "unified online golf world rankings". WGTLS might expand into OGLS (Online Golf Ladder System).

I agree with Mark...mixing results from two differing ladders could become problematic; Mark has enough to handle keeping up with the growing community here and increasing flexibility of the WGT without having to incorporate, into the current ladders, the nuances and desires that come from playing an entirely different sim.

Makes much better sense, to me, to have separate ladders for separate sims.

In addition, I'm sure there will be a TWO ladder up and running soon; either at Case's or at MyLeague.

Harve

[EllisSpice]

You know, like in real golf, there is the PGA Tour, and there are other tours on other continents. But there is still only one unified world golf ranking. So, the Ladders on this site might be the "unified online golf world rankings". WGTLS might expand into OGLS (Online Golf Ladder System).

I still prefer the idea of having separate ladders on this site. Maybe there could be some kind of ranking system that would combine the two ladders in some way, but that would just add further work to Mark's ever-growing to-do list.

I like to think of it like this; WGT is the PGA Tour and TWO is the 'Race to Dubai' (Euro Tour). Both are separate, while having a combined ranking system.

PS: Ellis, I don't think there'd be any legal issues to resolve... Anyone can record any match results on any site; that isn't subject to copyright restrictions.

I don't think there would be, but I've seen some very strange lawsuits on my time on the Interweb (many including EA).

In addition, I'm sure there will be a TWO ladder up and running soon; either at Case's or at MyLeague.

And when there is (and I finally get TWO to work!), I'll join, as will many other people if enough people know of it.

[Faterson]

But, see, that's what I mean: anyone can launch separate, segregated ladders. Nothing unique about that.

The exciting thing, as I see it, would be the integration of the two games in a single ladder. You don't have separate rankings in real golf; there's only 1 world ranking, and any top player is (basically) free to choose between the PGA Tour, European Tour, etc. In the same way here, players could choose between WGT, TWO, or both. The default would always be WGT.

Besides, Ellis & HB, if you talk about Mark's workload... That workload would only arise if Mark were to set up separate Ladders for TWO... It would needlessly duplicate his efforts.

Whereas if TWO were simply allowed onto the current Ladders, it's a trivial matter, requiring next to no workload for Mark. All he needs to do is add the 5 TWO courses to the Ladder 9 & 18 record loss page. The variables such as wind speed / tees etc. are already there, and could merely be expanded to include TWO-specific variables, such as fairway speed, green hardness, and rough length, but not necessarily! The crucial information (tees, wind) is already there.

I've just played my 6th-ever TWO round, best result so far. (78 at Pebble Beach.) The 18 holes took 45 minutes to play for 2 players; unthinkable for WGT, where the same round would require at least 90 minutes and possibly up to 120 minutes. It seems too bad to let the current Ladder 18 on this site languish when it could be invigorated considerably by allowing folks to post TWO results there. A foursome 18-hole TWO match would still only take 45 minutes to complete, instead of 4 hours as on WGT. In that way, many Ladder 18 match results could be posted.

Another difference I've noticed on TWO versus WGT is that it's pretty difficult sometimes to find someone to play with. When you click on Join Multiplayer, the response often is that there's no available game to join. This will change, no doubt, when the game will be made fully open to the public. I'm not sure if it's permissible to use this site's Meet & Greet to set up TWO matches; it's probably inappropriate, although I tried to do so last night, wishing to get to know the 5 TWO courses for the first time in someone else's company, and being unable to find open rounds on TWO. I ended up playing 2 courses on my own, and 3 with random folks, one of whom happened to be drivnchaos from WGT.

Oh, and one more difference: because you're freely allowed to choose any tees you want, a player's average score is even more meaningless on TWO than on WGT. I've so far played with moderately difficult pins, wind, and from the blue tees, so my scores are necessarily higher than someone's who only chooses to play from gold tees with no wind all the time. Scores in the low 40s (for all 18 holes!) are then no rare thing on TWO! However, TWO is definitely no easier to play than WGT when you select realistic settings. I've also seen players quitting their TWO rounds, which probably, just like on WGT, isn't connected to any penalty, and further distorts a player's average score.

[gaoerfuqiu]

I like the idea, Faterson, but I think it would be best served during Open Beta to allow others the opportunity to play it. I can collect data and post it on the forums, if Mark would allow it, but this would only work if it were in Open Beta; because in my mind, it's not fair to give some people a quicker and easier alternative to playing.

[Faterson]

it's not fair to give some people a quicker and easier alternative to playing.

You have a point there, Gao. This would be one more reason to cancel the Hot Six rule, as is already being considered. That's because Hot Six emphasizes quantity of opponents, instead of their quality.

If there's no Hot Six rule, then it doesn't really matter how often folks play WGT or TWO. In a ladder match, it's the quality of opponents that matters, regardless of whether the playing environment happens to be WGT or TWO. After all, playing conditions would be equal for both/all players that meet in any particular WGT or TWO match.

One slightly worrying aspect of TWO: the perceived ease of play. As I said, if game settings are chosen realistically, the game is as difficult to play as WGT. However, there are some troubling signs on the horizon. The player in TWO's game "improves his/her skills over time", and this progress is perhaps too fast. I started playing TWO 2 days ago, with a round of 93. Two days and six rounds later, my best round (from blue tees, with medium pins & wind) is already a sub-par 71. Such fast progress is next to unthinkable on WGT.com. Also, after just 2 days of play, my tee shot averages 270 yards or over, with 300+ yard drives not infrequent. And TWO's software indicates that my player's driving ability is currently at only about 35%; what will happen if I improve it all the way up to 100%? An ace on a par 5 hole?